scottish Gaelic

@Kwamikagami

I speak Gàidhlig at a beginners' level (I can get through an episode of Peppa Pig) and, yes, it's pronounced /ˈɡælɪk/ in that language. My interest in gaelic is only recent though, since I was an adult. I was brought up in North East Scotland and it was deeply unfashionable to be interested in the language... the whole Scottish Cringe thing. I was exposed to the language through television though and I'm fairly sure it was pronounced /ˈɡeɪlɪk/ when referred to in English language continuity. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 21:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I believe it is in the US, but I just saw a British linguist make the claim that the two are different, and beside pronouncing them he had the IPA on the screen. (And it was English rather than Gaelic IPA.) I checked Wiktionary and they make the same distinction. — kwami (talk) 21:40, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
If we're talking BBC continuity, I have to say that my memory is of the overwhelming employment of the former pronunciation. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:54, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Grampian TV for the most part, 1970s to 1990s. I was surprised that it wasn't "gay-lik" when I started learning the language in the 2000s. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 22:15, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm well past the Peppa Pig level and I have been heavily involved in Scottish Gaelic since the late 90s and yes, there are a few people in Scotland who pronounce the first syllable /geɪ/ but most don't. Can we *please* stop flogging that one? Akerbeltz (talk) 17:25, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The article An Leabhar Mòr has been proposed for deletion. I can't decide whether this is important or not. Maybe Gaelic enthusiasts would like to look in there? Doric Loon (talk) 15:38, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm not actually sure what the criteria are for pages regarding pages on individual books/art projects aimed at a fairly small community? Any thoughts? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki generally does not discuss what topics are not, for the simple reason that this is could be taken as offering the opinion that it should be. Exceptions are, of course, if it is significant and discussed in reliable sources. Otherwise, it's far better to keep articles focussed on what the subject is, especially in the lead. What it is not is rarely as important or relevant.

So I can't see much reason why the lead of this article should concern itself with Scottish Gaelic not being an official language of the UK, when it is far, far more significant that it is an official language of Scotland, which is only mentioned in the infobox. It is also what the source cited (a Scottish Government document) actually says. This source does not discuss UK official languages at all. In fact, I don't think there is any source cited in the article that does.

I also don't think that preventative "heading off" erroneous additions is much of an argument for determining what appears in an article lead. If incorrect or unsourced information is added it should simply be reverted, or an editor note added. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

These discussions arise in the context of - and to an extent due to confusion with - the impact of the Welsh Language Act 1993, which confers much broader rights to Welsh at a national i.e. UK level as it was - predating the Welsh Assembly - passed at Westminster. Coupled with the legal odditiy of English not being an official language either, stating that ScG is NOT an official language is neither irrelevant nor expressing an opinion on whether it should or shouldn't.
This is not hugely dissimilar to the United States article which in the infobox states "Official languages: None at the federal level" Akerbeltz (talk) 21:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
@Akerbeltz Stating what it is not, however, is unsourced. As would be any comparison with Welsh. How is the reader to verify this? Whether the intention is to state an opinion or not, that's how it can appear. Otherwise, why is it there, in the lead? There are thousands of things Scottish Gaelic is not.
I would suggest that what is there is changed to begin with what it is, and what the existing source actually verifies. Anything about its UK status can follow, supported by a source that actually discusses its UK status. If good sources can be found, and it's absolutely necessary, this can be expanded on to include a contrast with the status of Welsh, later in the article in an appropriate section. This would actually address the confusion in a far more informative way, than an unsupported claim, as present. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 22:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
And your comparison with the United States article is not similar at all. This would be more similar if the English Language article lead with "English is not an official language of the United States". I haven't checked, but I doubt it does. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 22:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
I'll try and respond a bit more later but I'd like to point out that this page doesn't "lead with what it is not", you're making it sound like it's the opening sentence. It's a clarification on the legal status of a minority language, which is information commonly found in or near the top of such pages. It's in the 3rd paragraph of Welsh language, the 1st paragraph of Galician language; also in 1st for Catalan language and Hungarian language which contrast "official" with "spoken" (i.e. not official). Maybe for speakers of big languages who are used to the luxury of having everything at their disposal in their own language it's no big deal whether their language is official or not, but for smaller languages it IS a big deal whether your language is official or not. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:34, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
All the examples you gave are supported by a source, and start with what the language is. If this article is to take them as an example, it should do the same; Scottish Gaelic is an official language of Scotland, (cite) but not an official language of the United Kingdom (cite). I've no issue with the lead clarifying its UK status, but do not think this should be totally unsourced (there is no source for this claim in the lead, or anywhere in the article), and should take precedence over its Scottish status. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:53, 4 November 2023 (UTC)