wikiproject Baseball

I noticed the title Dave Roberts (baseball manager), while WP:NCBASEBALL shows an example to use the shorter Fred Thomas (manager) (which now redirects to Fred Thomas (baseball manager). A search shows that all (manager) titles for baseball redirect to (baseball manager). Should this existing practice be updated in the guideline? Initially, I thought it was longer than needed, unless there were other manager bios by that name, but if that's what we're already consistently doing... —Bagumba (talk) 13:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I updated the guideline to show Fred Thomas (baseball manager) instead. —Bagumba (talk) 05:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I've been thinking about the way the current player articles are written in the lead... Player X plays for Team Y in Major Legaue Baseball (MLB). He has previously played in MLB for Team Z, Team A, etc.... Not sure using "previously" is proper ... some times its actually inaccurate in situations like Matt Carpenter who started with the Cardinals and then played for a couple of other teams and then came back to the Cards... so saying he plays for the cards and previously played for the Yankees is actually wrong.. cause he was with the Cards first. I think "has also played for" makes more sense to keep all current players consistent and avoid using previously.. Spanneraol (talk) 00:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I feel it's still accurate to say that Matt Carpenter previously played for the Yankees and Padres, even if he also had a previous tenure with the Cardinals. I'm not a fan of dictating that there be only one form for listing a player's teams. In a case like Carpenter where most of his career is with one team, for instance, the text could be something like "After debuting with the Cardinals and playing for them from 2011 to 2021, Carpenter played for the Yankees and the Padres, before returning to the Cardinals in 2024." isaacl (talk) 02:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
"plays for the cards" is dealing with his current stint, so saying previously played for NYY in that context is OK. It becomes a problem when he retires, then saying "previously" w.r.t. the Yankees might be incorrect if its ambiguous which STL stint is being referred to. I agree that we're never going to get a cookie-cutter one size fits all format, but editors should be aware of the gotchas of using various wordings. —Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

There is a bundle of requested moves related to changing the titles of articles from "Major League Baseball" → "MLB". You may wish to provide your input at Talk:Major League Baseball#Requested move 14 April 2024. - Skipple ☎ 03:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Can't find almost anything about the extra inning ghost runners when, after discussing it with a friend, just assumed Wikipedia would have an article about them. Sometimes called "automatic runner", which has not page or redirect. Anybody else notice the absence of an important baseball article? As a position player the ghost runner should have a page. But even Rules of baseball has nothing about it. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

We do mention it at Extra innings#Major League Baseball, but it should probably be more places than it is. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Extra innings § Regular season (which is a subsection of Extra innings § Major League Baseball) has a description. Although "ghost runner" is used in by some, the MLB term "automatic runner" avoids confusion with the playground term, where "ghost runners" are used when just a few people are playing together and so a runner may have to go to bat. Personally, I don't think a separate article is warranted, but having a description in Baseball rules is probably worthwhile (it already contains league-specific info for games tied after nine innings). isaacl (talk) 23:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
"ghost runner" is inaccurate since there is an actual runner not a "ghost". I still absolutely hate the rule cause i'm a traditionalist and I really enjoy the long extra inning games... I still remember attending a Dodgers/Braves game at Dodger Stadium in 1996 that went 18 innings..[1] Ramon Martinez came in to pitch in relief on like two days rest and pitched four innings before coughing up the go-ahead run.. but it was a fun time. Spanneraol (talk) 00:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it sounds odd to anyone who has used ghost runners when playing a game with a few friends, as it's kind of the opposite intent: real runners are placed on base who didn't bat, versus taking runners who did bat off the bases. isaacl (talk) 00:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps an entry at Glossary of baseball terms with a redirect for the term to there? —Bagumba (talk) 01:03, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
I'd suggest that a full article is warranted by the fact that the runner, whatever the term, is now a mandated offensive position player. And all position players have articles. "Ghost runner" seems to be one of the common names, I think because the runner just "pops in" without any physical reason to be there. Harvey Haddix is turning over on his mound. Since I don't keep track of modern baseball, and the new rules have made it into a different game, I came looking for the ghost runner Wikipedia article and found there was none. Just would put up a stub if I started it, so someone who is good at creating pages and likes the subject maybe should go for it, and then we'll see what the page looks like. When I came looking for it it was to find out (hopefully in its lead), the history of the rule, if the runner gets credit for a run scored if driven in, and does the batter get credit for an RBI? And does it count in the ERA and won-lost record of the pitcher scored against? But most of all, the question I'd ask the commissioner, who likely had final yes-no rule approval, "Why did you ignore first base?". Randy Kryn (talk) 03:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Could go from glossary to an article too. Depends if someone wants to create a stub or not, if they're not ready to put together a decent size article. As for 1B, 2B can only speed up games more, which is their current objective.—Bagumba (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
An Automatic runner stub sounds easy (too easy, some good images come to mind, and the page should probably include a criticism section). Thinking about it, the ghost seems to be only the second offensive mandated player in the game (the other one being the Batter), so a stand-alone article seems appropriate. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Could someone else please start an Automatic runner stub? There are plenty of sources, many when searching "Automatic runner" (Here's one from the Sporting News). I just learned a few minutes ago that the pitcher is not charged for an earned run when the ghost/automatic runner scores, which goes to my level of understanding of the topic and why, in addition to my general dislike of the rule change, someone who knows its history and elements should start the page, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
  I'm not convinced it needs a standalone article. For the time being, I've created a redirect to Extra innings#Regular season, but anyone should feel free to replace it with a stub article. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

So I've jumped the gun in separating the Federal League from the 1914 & 1915 seasons when I should have discussed it here first. When I split the pages before, I made separate Federal League 1914 & 1915 pages, so the information hasn't been lost.

Previous format before my edits:

• Major League Baseball season pages (only 1901–present) contained:

• National League (NL) (1901–present)
• American League (AL) (1901–present)
• Federal League (FL) (1914–1915)

• Major leagues not considered for season pages:

• National League (NL) (1876–1900)
• American Association (AA) (1882–1891)
• Union Association (UA) (1884)
• Players' League (PL) (1890)
• Negro National League I (NNL) (1920–1931)
• Eastern Colored League (ECL) (1923–1928)
• American Negro League (ANL) (1929)
• East–West League (EWL) (1932)
• Negro Southern League (NSL) (1932)
• Negro National League II (NNL) (1933–1948)
• Negro American League (NAL) (1937–1948)

Sites such as baseball-reference.com consider the Federal League and 7 Negro Major Leagues as major league (as well as the several 1876–1900 leagues), as this is what MLB considers true. It should be noted that there is a distinction between leagues being considered major league, and the organization known as "Major League Baseball". To add to the confusion, MLB includes Federal League stats on its stat pages, but the Federal League is not listed on the standings nor schedule pages. However, (assumingly due to incomplete records), the 1920–1948 Negro Major League stats are nowhere to be found. I tend to believe that the Federal League stats are on MLB's website because many of their players were of the AL or NL before and after the Federal League's existence.

There's the fact that MLB as a North American league has a unique history compared to say, professional football or basketball. With football, the NFL and AFL were always completely separate entities until 1970, when they merged and saw the formation of the NFC and AFC, under the umbrella of NFL. The lines between Major League Baseball were always blurred to some degree from the 1903 National Agreement until the legal merger of the NL & AL into one organization in 2000.

Jhn31 and I had been talking on my talk page (thanks to Jhn31, I was made aware of previous discussion), and I'm going to copy/paste my thoughts (and expand a little) on the matter (Jhn31, I don't want to copy/paste your words, so if you want to reiterate here that'd be great!).

I'm personally of the belief that we should follow one of the two extremes:
• MLB season pages should strictly be for the NL and AL (and in fact, the 1901 & 1902 pages should be separate NL & AL pages à la AFL & NFL 1967–1969 seasons even though Super Bowl I-III took place these seasons), as any proper cooperation between the AL and NL didn't begin until 1903 with the National Agreement. "Major League Baseball" as an organization did not exist in any sense before 1903.
• All leagues 1876–present that are considered major league should be included on season pages à la baseball-reference.com. Granted, I'd be tempted to make a distinction where any pre-1903 seasons are "1### Major league baseball season", where only the first word is capitalized since the all-caps "Major League Baseball" refers to the proper organization.
To make things even more confusing, MLB celebrates 1869 as the inaugural Major League season (even though its website is only dedicated to go back to 1901), a year that pre-dates even the 1871–1875 NA, which has its major league status in question (though I guess this is really just referencing the Cincinnati Red Stockings as the first professional baseball team). I personally like the first extreme much more than the second, as it has season pages dedicated to leagues as they existed at the time. It feels the most proper.

Separate from the Federal League issue, all of the major leagues from 1876 to present should, in my opinion be contained in some form of season pages, instead of just being redirects to "1### in baseball" pages. Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 04:35, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

To echo my comments from 2022, the Federal League is a definite Yes, as MLB considers it a "major" league, counts statistics as part of player's MLB career records, the Hall of Fame includes Federal League teams played on (but not minor or international leagues), and reference sites include it in the statistics. I think the Federal League standings and stats leaders umabiguously belong on the 1914 and 1915 season articles. I prefer taking it a step further and including all "major" leagues on the respective season pages, since that aligns with MLB's preferences and sites like Baseball Reference, which is going to be the source of much of the standings, awards, and statistical information found on the pages anyway. Perhaps there could be a standard paragraph on each page from 1920 to 1948 stating that MLB has only considered the Negro leagues to be "major" since 2020. Jhn31 (talk) 04:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
I'll add one thing to my comment by referencing something I said in the past: These MLB Hall of Fame plaques don't mention non-MLB accomplishments, but all 3 of which mention the Federal League: Eddie Plank Edd Roush Joe Tinker. Or the Baseball Reference pages for 1914 or 1915 which list the Federal League as part of the "Major Leagues." Or the ESPN pages for 1914 and 1915. Or Fangraphs. If MLB says so, the Hall of Fame says so, media sources say so, trusted references that drive so many MLB articles on Wikipedia say so... then Wikipedia should reflect that. I feel like it's outside the mission of Wikipedia for editors to decide that despite the primary and secondary source material saying one thing, that we feel like it should actually go in a different direction. Jhn31 (talk) 05:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Indeed as I noted in 2022 & note again, the Federal League should be excluded from the 1914 & 1915 MLB season pages, because the Federal League champion didn't participate in the World Series. GoodDay (talk) 05:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
And whether it's 2022 or 2024, that's a completely arbitrary distinction that you made up. As Wikipedia editors, we must follow the sources and not inject our own opinions about how things "should" be here. Jhn31 (talk) 05:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't have the authority to delete the FL records from the 1914 & 1915 MLB seasons pages. Merely re-stating that I support their deletion from those two pages. GoodDay (talk) 13:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Yet again this topic just doesn't get any real discussion here. I believe it's appropriate to go back to the pre-existing consensus and restore the 1914 and 1915 articles back to how they were, with the Federal League shown. I also think the 1920 through 1948 seasons should have the various Negro Leagues shown, as that's how MLB and the secondary references show it, but I don't think there's even been a consensus here for that, so we can hold off until we do. Jhn31 (talk) 15:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If more input is needed, I believe that the 1914-15 MLB season pages should include the Federal League because it is widely considered to be a major league by baseball historians. Hatman31 (talk) 17:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Given the lack of discussion, I'll try leaving a notice on Major League Baseball's talk page to get some eyes over here. The more I've thought about this, the more my opinion that the FL & other major-league-tier leagues should be separate strengthens (this includes separating AL & NL into their own pages for 1901 & 1902). Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 17:44, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

That seems like an unnecessary complication to split of 1901 and 1902 into separate articles. Neither MLB nor any of the secondary sources or historians do anything like that. Jhn31 (talk) 18:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Create (if not already in existence) new season pages for the Federal League & the Negro Major Leagues. MLB season pages are for only the National League & American League. GoodDay (talk) 20:03, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep the FL on the 1914 & 1915 MLB pages. MLB recognizes it as a major league, as do all other reliable sources, and we have no good reason to remove it as such. The Negro Leagues are more complicated, because the records there are still incomplete, though their recognition as major league caliber should be noted. oknazevad (talk) 00:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

But the Federal League teams never competed in the World Series. GoodDay (talk) 13:30, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
So? Spanneraol (talk) 16:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
That's why I'm against re-adding FL clubs into the 1914 & 1915 MLB season pages. GoodDay (talk) 16:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Again, that's a standard that you just made up. Should Wikipedia reflect what the primary and secondary sources say, or just stuff that one random user made up? Can you point to any baseball historian or secondary reference that backs up your idea that "the Federal League actually wasn't major because its champion did not compete in the World Series" ? Jhn31 (talk) 16:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm not the decider on this matter. I merely state my position on the matter. GoodDay (talk) 16:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
And I'm asking you to back up your position. I'm willing to change my mind if you make a well-supported argument, but you're not willing to make an argument at all. Jhn31 (talk) 18:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm not trying to change your mind. If you want more input on this topic? I'd recommend mentioning this discussion at WP:SPORTS. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:14, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
There is a difference between recognizing a league to be at the major league level and being in the organization known as "Major League Baseball", no? It's easy to conflate, but I don't see MLB recognizing the Federal League as having been in "Major League Baseball", but rather a league, that while rivaling the NL & AL (members of MLB), was in fact a league of major league caliber. Simultaneously, MLB will recognize the stats of players that were a part of the FL in overall player stats in the history of MLB because the FL was of major league quality, and not including those stats are a disservice to those players.
Unless someone can point to otherwise, I haven't seen MLB recognize the Federal League, itself as an organization, as being a part of the organizational history of MLB, which is different than recognizing the FL (as well as the AA, UA, PL, NNL1, ECL, ANL, EWL, NSL, NNL2, & NAL) as being a part of the organizational history of MLB.
Maybe it's just me, but there's a conflation occurring in this discussion between being in MLB, and being a major league. There's a difference. Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 00:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
I think you're needlessly splitting hairs. You yourself linked to MLB.com's 1914 stats page, where the Federal League is included. If MLB itself says the Federal League should be included, reference sites like BaseballReference, ESPN, and Fangraphs say the Federal League should be included, players' Hall of Fame plaques include the Federal League, baseball historians unanimously say the Federal League should be included, then who are we as measly Wikipedia editors to say "well, actually..." ?
There was "no such thing" as "MLB" (the organization) in 1914 for the Federal League to be "part of" anyway. As detailed in the Wiki article here, the organization called Major League Baseball didn't actually become a thing until 2000. The entire history of MLB for the 18th and 19th centuries is based on the concept of who was and was not a "major league," not the literal membership in an organized called Major League Baseball. It's all historians looking back to decide if and when a particular league as "major" or not at the time, and I think the rules of Wikipedia would strongly support aligning the articles to match the consensus of the historians, references, and the primary source itself (which you yourself linked for us). Jhn31 (talk) 01:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
MLB is not saying that. MLB as the primary source itself isn't even consistent. It has player stats for FL players, but if I try to lookup the standings for FL teams in 1914 & 1915, they're nowhere to be found on MLB's website. It shows the AL & NL standings from 1901–present. It doesn't show the NL standings 1876–1900 (or any other 19th century league), and well, the AL didn't exist as a major league before 1901. There was a degree of cooperation between the AL & NL from 1903 with the National Agreement. There was never any sense of cooperation between the FL and AL/NL apparatus under the National Agreement. If we’re to use the primary source (MLB.com), it would tell us that the teams that were in MLB number to 31 franchises (with the 1901–1902 Baltimore Orioles being the only inactive franchise).
Wiki itself plays a bit hard and loose with facts as well. National Association of Professional Base Ball Players has in its lead “…to form Major League Baseball (MLB) in 1903.” Major League Baseball has in its own page in the Organizational structure section, “There were several challenges to MLB's primacy in the sport, with notable attempts to establish competing leagues occurring during the late 1800s, from 1913 to 1915 with the short-lived Federal League, and in 1960 with the aborted Continental League.” This certainly implies they are separate, no? (Obviously, we cannot source Wikipedia for anything to put on Wikipedia, but this is emblematic that the consistency on Wikipedia regarding the aforementioned needs to be addressed).
Could I be splitting hairs? Perhaps. The more research I’ve done looking into the history, the more I’m for one of two schools of thought. If I were creating these articles from scratch, I’d do the following:
• Have unified MLB pages, only from 2000–present (with independent NL and AL pages pre-2000), or
• Don’t use the proper noun “Major League Baseball” until 2000 but using the improper “major league baseball” for all pre-2000 seasons.
  • A sub-option of this, inspired from Baseball-Reference, (which may be a good compromise position), would be the status quo, but for where it says “League” in the infobox, for all pre-2000 seasons, it should say “National League”, “American League” (see exampled below for infobox changes).
But “Major League Baseball” the organization (again, as you said, and which is true), did not exist pre-2000. Baseball-reference, in my opinion, gets this partially right. There is the 2000 season page titled 2000 Major League Baseball Team Statistics. If you click “previous season”, the 1999 page is titled 1999 Major League Team Statistics, where “Baseball” is missing.
As an example, here's what the top of 1999 & 2000 infoboxes look like now:

Here's what the top of 1999 & 2000 infoboxes could look like with the keep-combined-but-more-factual revision. There's a case to be made whether the league's should be listed alphabetical or chronological-by-founding-date:

Following that trend, the 1914 infobox could look like:

Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 03:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

If I can change sports on you, the Cleveland Browns moved to Baltimore and became the Ravens, and then 3 years later, a new Browns team was added as an expansion team. But instead of that, the NFL recognizes both Browns as a single franchise that was inactive for 3 seasons and returned. That's not "really" what happened, but that's how the NFL records are structured, and Wikipedia defers to the NFL on that. The page List of Cleveland Browns seasons shows all of them from both iterations. List of Baltimore Ravens seasons doesn't include the years in Cleveland, even though the continuous Modell-owned franchise did play there. Wikipedia defers to what the NFL now recognizes, and not what is technically true, even though both the Browns and Ravens pages note this.
Similarly, I believe that Wikipedia should follow what MLB now recognizes, that even though technically "Major League Baseball" as a formal organization didn't exist until 2000, and before that it was more of a concept of a league being "major," MLB now recognizes these leagues from the 1800s and 1900s (primarily the National League and American League, but also a long list of other leagues) as part of "Major League Baseball" for the purposes of record keeping. I think it aligns with MLB's current stance and serves the readers well to have 1 article for each year from 1876 to 1999 (and also through present) for all leagues recognized as major, and for 1920 through 1948 have a note that the Negro leagues weren't recognized as "major" until 2020, but are now. Maybe there could even be a note in every article up to 1999 that the organization "Major League Baseball" didn't actually exist yet then.
I hold no strong preference on the whether "Major League Baseball" should be capitalized, but unless there is a secondary source out there that lowercases it, I lean against it because I don't think Wikipedia should be inventing conventions like that. Jhn31 (talk) 04:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
The NHL Coyotes situation could also be used with this example as well, though Arizona currently has no team (yet?)
The fact that MLB didn't exist until 2000 is why, if anything, we keep the pages as Major League Baseball, but just change the infobox to not explicitly mention "Major League Baseball", but rather list each individual league, like I have in the 1999 & 1914 infobox examples. Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 04:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Given that back in August 2022 this community reached the consensus that the Federal League SHOULD be included in the 1914 and 1915 pages (Wiki talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 48#Federal League records in the 1914 & 1915 Major League Baseball season pages) and nothing here has indicated any change to that consensus, I think it would appropriate to restore those pages immediately, and redirect 1914 Federal League season and 1915 Federal League season to the MLB season articles. Since User:Spesh531 has added additional content since removing the Federal League information, I'd like to give him the opportunity to add the Federal League information back with his additional content, rather than just a straight revert. There are still two outstanding questions where I don't think we've reached a consensus yet:

• Whether the 7 Negro Leagues that are now recognized as having "major league" status should be similarly included on the 1920 through 1948 pages. I don't think this is as clear cut as the Federal League, since for example MLB.com doesn't list those teams as "major" in the same way it does for the Federal League, but MLB's official stance is that they should count, and reference sites like Baseball Reference and Fangraphs do count them as major league teams. There was concern that stats aren't fully complete as not every game's box score is available, but I think there is enough to at least show teams, standings, and league leaders on the pages. It would be appropriate to include a note in every one of those articles that the Negro leagues were recognized by MLB as "major leagues" starting in 2020.
• Whether there should be articles for 1876 through 1899 seasons. I also would say yes for these, as the National League is recognized as a major league going back to 1876 (not just 1901), and there would be other leagues in some of those years as well. I'm really not sure what the argument against this is, other than it's been this way for 15 years and no one has been interested enough to change it.

Does anyone have further thoughts on these two questions? Do we need a separate header? Jhn31 (talk) 03:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't say the community reached a consensus in 2022. I'd say opinion was evenly split between the "FL-separate" and "FL-in-MLB-page", but the discussion died out. The status quo pre-2020 did not include any information for the FL except for the managers (which I think is due in part to the likely little traffic these season pages receive). Mid-2020 saw the FL information added, but as far as I'm aware, no discussions really happened until 2022, when the mid-2020 status quo of including the Federal League into MLB season pages was confirmed (again, only because discussions seemed to die out). I'd be willing to concede to the current format but only with what I said above, where the infobox League section should not mention "Major League Baseball" pre-2000.
I also think the capitalization discussion should be furthered. I like a Baseball-Reference-based approach, where only "Major League" is capitalized, so, for example, the 1999 page would say "1999 Major League baseball season".
If we follow the approach of combining all major leagues into one season article, if MLB's notice of major-league recognition of Negro leagues in 2020 is to be stated, it would be worth it to add notes for the AA/UA/PL/FL, dated 1969. Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 05:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think we create pre-1901 season pages until a firm consensus has been reached for the current pages, so extra work isn't made. Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 05:17, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
It's labeled at the top of the box "Consensus is to include the Federal League records in the respective MLB season articles," and if you count up the number of individual names on each side of the debate, there were quite a bit more in favor of including them, just like in this box. I think Wikipedia rules would very clearly favor restoring them, because at the very least there is no consensus now in 2024 to override the consensus from 2022. I would agree with your point to add a note in the 1914 and 1915 season pages that the Federal League has been considered to be a "major" league since 1969, and also have a comment at the top of the article linking any potential editors to the 2022 discussion and this one, and telling them not to remove the Federal League from the article. Jhn31 (talk) 05:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Go figure, I read the entirety of that discussion except the very top mentioning User:Nableezy's consensus comment 😅. Since this discussion had no consensus I'll revert the changes and re-merge the FL into the 1914 & 1915 pages (as well as merging and organizing the 1920–1948 pages to include the seven Negro Major Leagues, as these leagues were the catalyst as to why I brought this discussion up in the first place). But two issues I see still remain:
What of the League section of the infobox and capitalization? It wouldn't be accurate to have "Major League Baseball" pre-2000 in the infobox (this is especially the case pre-1966 as the term itself had not been used until the creation of the "Major League Baseball Promotion Corporation", or pre-1969 before MLB's logo mentioning "MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL" (which should be noted, doesn't tell us anything about capitalization since the entire label is) came into being). It would be historically accurate to mention both the American League and National League separately in the infobox for all pre-2000 seasons, but keep Major League Baseball in the lead.
Regarding capitalization, I think this article at Society for American Baseball Research (SABR) is worth a read. While this part of the discussion is splitting hairs a bit, the "Major League Baseball" capitalization for any pre-1903 season and arguably the same for any pre-2000 should also be ironed out. Like I mentioned above, I think Wikipedia following Baseball-Reference's lead of keeping "Major League" capitalized and make "baseball" lowercase for all pre-2000 seasons would be a good idea. Arguably, SABR's self-imposed rules of continuing to refer to the lowercase "major leagues" for all things not post-1999 may be a better reference. "Major League baseball", as in titling the pages "19## Major League baseball season" at least to me, is a categorical or descriptive term, including all major leagues (whether they interacted with each other or not). However, "19## major league baseball season" may be more a more accurate title if we follow SABR's policy. Even the Associated Press had not used the full capitalization consistently until 2000.
I'm trying to think of this as if we hadn't lived through the legal merger yet. Let's say its 1987 and these pages are being created. The legal merger of the NL and AL had not occurred yet. How would these season articles—before said merger occurs—have been titled? This line of thinking is the (IMO) correct way to title the pre-2000 season pages. Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 17:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I recommend just making 1 article in Draft form for a season between 1920 and 1948 (probably one with two Negro major leagues) before editing all of them, because there are a lot of conventions we'll have to establish. 50.86.55.67 (talk) 19:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Definitely! Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 19:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

we seem to have a mismatch of "was" vs "were" in describing former teams. see New York Giants (baseball), for instance (were) vs Chicago Pirates (was). I assume "were" is correct just based on the number of teams in the Players' League with this description? Therapyisgood (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Should treat team names as plural per MOS:PLURALS:
In North American English...the major exception is that when a sports team is referred to by its short name, plural verbs are commonly used, e.g. the Heat are playing the Lakers tonight.
—Bagumba (talk) 15:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to propose removing the fields for debut game and last game played from the {{Infobox baseball biography}} template. It unnecessarily adds vertical height to the infobox with a minimum of 4 table rows (debut game label, debut game date, final game label, final game date), and for some players like Ichiro who played in multiple leagues, there can be 6 rows — all just so we have a begin date and end date to their career. Secondly, it's essentially duplicative with the teams parameter that shows the years that the player spent with each team, and in the grand scheme of things, there isn't much value added from knowing the month and day they started or ended their career. Thirdly, I don't see any sportsman infoboxes other than cricket that allow specific dates to be provided for the debut and finale of one's career (for cricket, it's only for international competition), so this would be consistent with most other sports. What do other people think? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I think in baseball specific dates for these debut dates are more notable than in other sports that have less games...like football or basketball... and it tends to be mentioned a lot in reliable sources... so I would be opposed to removing that item from the infobox. Spanneraol (talk) 15:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I do not feel this information is essential for a concise overview of the key characteristics of a player, which is my personal rule of thumb for infobox contents, so I agree with removing it. It's not clear to me that having a longer season is a consideration in evaluating the essential nature of the info. isaacl (talk) 16:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this, it's incredibly useful information to have in order to see the length and scope of a player's career, and baseball players more than any other sport can start or end their careers at different points of the season. It's especially useful for players who aren't necessarily all stars. SportingFlyer T·C 17:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
How are you not able to determine the length or scope of someone's career from the teams played for list? It gives a sequential list of the teams the person played for and years of their tenure. If you want to know when their career started and ended, look at the first and last teams played for in the list. How is baseball any different from other pro sports in terms of when during a season someone's career may start or end? Injuries, call-ups, and signings/releases are not unique to baseball. There is no reason I need to know Joe Schmoe debuted in MLB on June 2, 1959, in the infobox. Knowing he debuted in 1959 is sufficient for an infobox, which is meant to be a high level summary of the person, and the year can already be gleaned from info elsewhere in the infobox. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
You might not, but it's good information to me, considering it shows if they were a late season call up, made the opening day roster, retired mid season, et cetera. SportingFlyer T·C 03:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm undecided, but I thought it might be helpful to illustrate the difference with and without. I chose Ichiro. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Ichiro's current infobox
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Ichiro Suzuki   Ichiro with the Seattle Mariners in 2011 Right fielder Born: (1973-10-22) 22 October 1973 (age 50) Nishikasugai-gun, Aichi, Japan Batted: Left Threw: Right Professional debut NPB: 11 July, 1992, for the Orix BlueWave MLB: 2 April, 2001, for the Seattle Mariners Last appearance NPB: 13 October, 2000, for the Orix BlueWave MLB: 21 March, 2019, for the Seattle Mariners NPB statistics Batting average .353 Hits 1,278 Home runs 118 Runs batted in 529 Stolen bases 199 MLB statistics Batting average .311 Hits 3,089 Home runs 117 Runs batted in 780 Stolen bases 509 Teams Orix BlueWave (1992–2000) Seattle Mariners (2001–2012) New York Yankees (2012–2014) Miami Marlins (2015–2017) Seattle Mariners (2018–2019) Career highlights and awards NPB 7× All-Star (1994–2000) Japan Series champion (1996) 3× Pacific League MVP (1994–1996) 7× Golden Glove Award (1994–2000) 7× Best Nine Award (1994–2000) 2× Matsutaro Shoriki Award (1994, 1995) 7× Pacific League batting champion (1994–2000) Pacific League RBI leader (1995) Pacific League stolen base leader (1995) MLB 10× All-Star (2001–2010) AL MVP (2001) AL Rookie of the Year (2001) 10× Gold Glove Award (2001–2010) 3× Silver Slugger Award (2001, 2007, 2009) 2× AL batting champion (2001, 2004) AL stolen base leader (2001) MLB record 262 hits, single season Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame Medals Men's baseball Representing   Japan World Baseball Classic   2006 San Diego Team   2009 Los Angeles Team

Ichiro's infobox without debut and final dates
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Ichiro Suzuki   Ichiro with the Seattle Mariners in 2011 Right fielder Born: (1973-10-22) 22 October 1973 (age 50) Nishikasugai-gun, Aichi, Japan Bats: Left Throws: Right NPB statistics Batting average .353 Hits 1,278 Home runs 118 Runs batted in 529 Stolen bases 199 MLB statistics Batting average .311 Hits 3,089 Home runs 117 Runs batted in 780 Stolen bases 509 Teams Orix BlueWave (1992–2000) Seattle Mariners (2001–2012) New York Yankees (2012–2014) Miami Marlins (2015–2017) Seattle Mariners (2018–2019) Career highlights and awards NPB 7× All-Star (1994–2000) Japan Series champion (1996) 3× Pacific League MVP (1994–1996) 7× Golden Glove Award (1994–2000) 7× Best Nine Award (1994–2000) 2× Matsutaro Shoriki Award (1994, 1995) 7× Pacific League batting champion (1994–2000) Pacific League RBI leader (1995) Pacific League stolen base leader (1995) MLB 10× All-Star (2001–2010) AL MVP (2001) AL Rookie of the Year (2001) 10× Gold Glove Award (2001–2010) 3× Silver Slugger Award (2001, 2007, 2009) 2× AL batting champion (2001, 2004) AL stolen base leader (2001) MLB record 262 hits, single season Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame Medals Men's baseball Representing   Japan World Baseball Classic   2006 San Diego Team   2009 Los Angeles Team

Strong oppose, no real reason for removal given, and the start/end dates are perfectly valid to have in the infobox; in Ichiro's case the infobox is hardly any smaller. It feels like everything these days is a solution in search of a problem. Wizardman 21:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't see a compelling reason for removal. I share Spanneraol's perception of debut dates as being more significant in baseball than in other sports. Agree that this looks like a solution in search of a problem. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Personally, I don't feel baseball to be an outliner with regards to debut dates versus debuts in leagues for other sports, such as the NHL for hockey. Midseason call ups, injury replacements, playoff pushes, and the end of college seasons, for example, are common reasons in the NHL that spread out debuts throughout the season. This information is indeed important within the article text to describe a player's career. I just don't feel it to be sufficiently key to meet my personal rule of thumb for inclusion in the infobox. isaacl (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
MLB.com and all baseball stat sites list the first appearance in the key info on their pages.. That is not the case for any other sport.. where it is hard to even find that info.. so yes it is more notable. Spanneraol (talk) 23:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Sites have game log information for NHL players, for instance, so it's not hard to find out the information. isaacl (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
It's buried under other menus.. not positioned prominently in those other sports. Spanneraol (talk)
Sure, that was just in response to your statement that it's "hard to even find that info". Stat sites put all sorts of stuff up front. For example, Baseball Reference includes nicknames, but the consensus here is not to put nicknames in the infobox. English Wikipedia can have different standards for inclusion. isaacl (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
FWIW, Basketball Reference has the debut,[2] similarly collapsed like in Baseball Reference. —Bagumba (talk) 05:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
I agree with the above suggestions that debut dates are more significant than in other sports. It seems worth noting that the Sports Reference sites appear to agree - Baseball-Reference does include a player's debut and final games in the block of information at the top of a player's page ([3]), but the sites for pro football, basketball, and hockey don't do that: [4], [5], [6]. Egsan Bacon (talk) 23:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

• I never look at the debut date section of the infobox. I would just look in the list of teams played for and that has the dates played in parenthesis [Orix BlueWave (1992–2000) ... Seattle Mariners (2018–2019)]. I've always been satisfied with just the year and not the month and day. The infobox, to me, is for an overview and the specific dates can go in the text. YMMV. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
  Since this is turning into more of an RfC-type !vote, I support full removal of the dates from the infobox as per the OP. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support removal per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:

  The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance

  Other sites aren't overwhelmingly featuring it as key info—it's even collapsed in Baseball Reference. MLB.com isn't an independent source.—Bagumba (talk) 10:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Analysis of other sites I looked at the stats links at Mariano Rivera § External links:

—Bagumba (talk) 05:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The dates are an important enough fact to be included do not violate MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Nemov (talk) 13:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
  I haven't seen a convincing argument why the date (as opposed to the year) is important enough, except that "other sites list it". Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The baseball season is extremely long compared to other sports and just saying they debuted sometime that year is insufficient. Spanneraol (talk) 14:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Extremely long in games? OK. However, over a calendar year, this year's NHL season (191 days) is 6 days longer than this year's MLB season (185 days). For an infobox, I still don't see the value in knowing if someone debuted within April or September of a given year. The infobox is meant as an overview, not a list of key dates in someone's career. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Well I disagree with you.. baseball has a lot more roster churn than other sports and the date someone debuts is a key moment. And I don't see the point in removing something that has been there since the beginning and is on most other baseball sites just cause you personally are somehow offended that it adds a couple of extra lines to the info box. If someone only played a couple of weeks it would be very obvious from the first and last dates as opposed to thinking they played a whole season and someone debuting in September during expanded roster periods is certainly different than debuting in April. In Ichiro's case above he seems to have extra stats and awards that I'd remove first if the length of his box is too long for you. Spanneraol (talk) 15:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
It's not that it's personally offensive to me, but it's just unnecessary to add (min.) 4 table rows in order to display (min.) 2 dates. We should be striving to simplify infoboxes and find more efficient ways to display the info. (For example, maybe we only need 1 stat table but we could change it to have the stats listed in 2 columns, one for each league. That would save a great deal of space.) All the other reasons I feel the debut and finale dates are inessential I've already covered and won't rehash. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 16:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
I haven't seen a convincing argument that this an actual problem. Nemov (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think the debut or last game played dates by themselves make it obvious how many games were played during that year. They just set an upper bound on how many might have been played. If there is a consensus that providing games played info for the debut/last year is sufficiently key to include in the infobox, then the count should be directly included. isaacl (talk) 21:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
My first instinct was this is useful and should be kept. But the info about other sports and other baseball almanacs moves me to neutral. However, if kept I think it needs to be moved below the teams as it's a subset of that data and is just too prominent in the infobox at the moment. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep Key info that shouldn't be removed and does not pose a sufficient bloating enough to run afoul of INFOBOXPURPOSE. The idea that there's no value in knowing if someone debuted in April or September of a given year shows a lack of understanding of the sport, to be blunt. oknazevad (talk) 05:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
  Making an editorial decision doesn't mean there's "no value" in what is potentially removed. —Bagumba (talk) 05:21, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
  I was responding with a close paraphrase to an above comment. I fundamentally disagree with that commenter's rationale of not seeing the value in including the date in the infobox. Whether someone debuted at the beginning of a season or as a September call-up is a very notable aspect of of their career and should be in the infobox. oknazevad (talk) 05:44, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
  The thing is that there's a lot of nuance and context that I feel is better explained in text. An opening day debut is significant, but I think that would be more clearly communicated by saying "opening day" instead of a date, since most people won't know the team's opening day date for each year by memory. A debut somewhat later in the year could have lots of reasons: it might be an injury replacement, a reset of the roster, a trade, an expected return from rehab that extended into the season, and so forth. Prior to 2020, a September debut usually signified an opportunity to play due to an expanded roster, but that's also not necessarily the case. A September debut is correlated to playoff eligibility, but not perfectly: being on the 40-player roster before September, even without having debuted, would still make a player eligible. A short phrase describing the reason for the debut would better capture the notable start of the player's career, but typically the consensus on English Wikipedia is to include more descriptive infomation in the main text. isaacl (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

more information can be found in the main text but the date itself should remain in the info box so it is easy to spot. No reason to make a change on it. Spanneraol (talk) 22:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I've often been curious about the debut/last date and the infobox is a great place for it. You would lose it in text, as it's closer to data than prose. SportingFlyer T·C 03:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Lack of understanding, my ass. I know what the difference is between playing one month at the end of the season after getting called up from the minors and playing from Opening Day. Are most other readers looking for a quick snapshot of someone's career going to care? Probably not! All these extraneous details get overly romanticized. What guarantee is there that someone started playing in April didn't get hurt after 2 games or wasn't sent down for poor performance? The body of the article is the place for all of this detail, instead of contributing to infobox bloat. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 03:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a RM name change discussion occurring at the Sign stealing talk page which may interest project members. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:09, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

See List of NBA awards for the inspiration. It includes Template:NBA Awards as a sidebar at the top of the article. Would anyone be in favor of adding {{MLB awards}} to the top of List of Major League Baseball awards? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Sidebars are more useful on the individual awards pages, allowing navigation to the other awards. List of Major League Baseball awards already has a comprehensive list, even without a sidebar. The problem the NBA pages have, e.g. NBA Most Valuable Player Award, is that someone later went and added an infobox as well, which leaves the top of the page cluttered. I'd recommend having an infobox or a sidebar, but not both.—Bagumba (talk) 05:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)