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Latest comment: 2 years ago12 comments6 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Russo-Ukrainian wars → List of wars between Russia and Ukraine – Following the closure of a recent AfD as no consensus, I think it is time to discuss what to do with this article. The present title is less than clear. If this article is going to be kept, it makes sense that the title make clear that it is a list of wars between Russia and Ukraine. None of these wars, other than the most recent one, are usually called 'Russo-Ukrainian War', and hence the present title is at least somewhat misleading, and potentially a gateway to an WP:OR historiography. One user proposed the title List of wars between Russia and Ukraine in the deletion discussion, and thus, I shall propose it here. This is an analogue to articles like List of wars between Russia and Sweden. RGloucester — ☎ 17:13, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Move to List of armed conflicts between Russia and Ukraine? Some of these may not be sufficiently large-scale to call wars between these two large places. — BarrelProof (talk) 20:07, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Comment a lot of those listed are not wars (like is 2003 Tuzla Island conflict really going to be listed as a war between Russia and Ukraine??), and strangely includes examples from as early as Kievan Rus', before any Ukrainian or Russian state. Amusingly the pillaging of Kiev of 1169 is included as the "first war between Ukrainians and Muscovites", calling those Kievans "Ukrainians" and Vladimir-Suzdalians "Muscovites". Mellk (talk) 20:31, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Believe me, I don't even agree with the existence of this page at all. See my comment in the AfD. In as much as we are keeping it, though, we need to make something useful out of it that isn't an WP:OR mess. RGloucester — ☎ 21:15, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I suppose it depends on if we were to remove anything that isn't a war or also include certain armed conflicts. But yes I would lean for something like "List of ... between Russia and Ukraine". Mellk (talk) 04:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
I would tend to prefer that we remove things that are not 'wars', as it is not obvious they should be here anyway. I am opposed to the 'armed conflict' proposal because 'armed conflict' is just a WP:EUPHEMISM for 'war', and is less WP:CONCISE. RGloucester — ☎ 20:22, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
OK, I support in that case. I suppose the question is then how far back this list would go and what would be considered to be between Ukraine and Russia to be included. Considering this article and some of the articles listed are just translations from Ukrainian wiki with nationalist POV. Mellk (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Pillaging of Kiev of 1169 is concidered as the first Russian-Ukrainian war by historians from both side. If you have a scientific proof from another source - please add this cite to the article. Sakateka (talk) 08:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Current sourcing does not support statement that it is "considered by many historians as first war between Ukrainians and Muscovites". And in that article this was cited to supposedly support that statement when that source contradicts that statement (I removed that statement as a result). Mellk (talk) 10:10, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Support as proposed. Call a spade a spade, call a war a war RedSlash 22:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Question on rating of this article
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
If the scope is wars between "Ukrainian states or national movements" and "Russian states" (the lead says armed conflicts while the article title says wars), then there needs to be agreement on what should be removed. Kievan Rus' is an obvious case for removal, as is 2003 Tuzla Island conflict; some of the others are less obvious. I also do not think that Grand Duchy of Lithuania can be considered a "Ukrainian state" or "national movement". Some of the articles listed are also just machine translations of problematic Ukrainian Wikipedia articles which makes this more complicated (well this article too was also just translated by a now-banned problematic user to push a POV). The sectioning is also focused on Ukraine. Mellk (talk) 22:03, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
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