list Of Countries And Dependencies By Population

See List of countries by population (United Nations). Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
It did. Apparent according to an edit made back in July this page is based on UN estimates. 24.216.160.195 (talk) 21:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Misread the edit, what I mean is it only uses UN estimates when official ones are unavailable. 24.216.160.195 (talk) 21:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Another stalwart changer of flags has been making the rounds, so I looked up some past discussions on the matter.

Some background: Western Sahara is a disputed territory with disputed recognition. Morocco controls most of it and calls it the Southern Provinces. But the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic or SADR calls the entire thing SADR, even though they only live on a slim border portion. The African Union sides with SADR, Morocco sides with Morocco, and the UN takes no particular side.

It has been discussed on Wikiproject flags, which handles the {flag|Western Sahara} template:[1] Consensus has always seemed to be that the flag should be the {noflag} template, but people keep reverting it there too.

They have split the baby over at Western Sahara, listing both the flag of Morocco and of SADR.

And meanwhile Flag of Western Sahara identifies as an article about flags being used, not about flags being not used.

So the question remains: what should the flag of Western Sahara be on country lists? I kinda doubt that the central place to have this discussion is here, but where? Wizmut (talk) 15:00, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Since there is only one Flag of Western Sahara, the question kind of answers itself. M.Bitton (talk) 15:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The NPOV question comes up because the disputed territory is the same name as the declared state, and they refer to slightly different objects.
The Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic article seems to have been merged into the Flag of Western Sahara article with the reason "Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic can easily be a section of this article"[2]. One commenter complained that such a merger would contradict an earlier RfC[3] that held the article should be about all the flags that are used, similar to Flag of Antarctica. Seems to have been a valid concern, because the former article about uncertainty eventually bowed to one about a definite object.
Consider how this is very indeterminate. This is even more confusing than a debate about, say Donetsk Oblast versus Donetsk People's Republic (as it would have been a few years ago) because "Western Sahara" is the same string of characters as "Western Sahara", because Morocco no longer applies a single flag to the region (it uses a few seals, though), and because the levels of recognition are slightly different. But imagine if those differences didn't exist. A Donetsk vs Donetsk debate could already leave a   on the page, and this is even less certain. Wizmut (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Actually, NPOV only comes into play when the sources disagree about something. In this case and until proven otherwise, the Flag of Western Sahara refers to a single flag. M.Bitton (talk) 17:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Please do not revert to contentious changes until the issue has been discussed. Wizmut (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Please follow your own advice given that you're the one who reverted multiple editors. M.Bitton (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
@Jolianomans1505 Your input is requested. Wizmut (talk) 17:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
@Lasunncty @N. Mortimer Your input is requested. Wizmut (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
That looks like WP:CANVASSING to me. M.Bitton (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
A similar discussion recently occurred at the area list. I also solicited comment from the person who originally made the contentious edits. Wizmut (talk) 17:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Even more of a reason to consider your well chosen pings as WP:CANVASSING. You're welcome to discussion this issue here and provide a valid reason (i.e., something other than a "similar discussion ..."). M.Bitton (talk) 18:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I provided several reasons, and they are all valid. We are discussing two things which have the same name. Wizmut (talk) 18:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Your reasons were based on your opinion (mentioning NPOV when in fact, all the sources about the flag of Western Sahara are unanimous about what it means). M.Bitton (talk) 18:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
What does it mean, the region or the alternative name for SADR? Wizmut (talk) 18:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm not interested in WP:OR. Like I said, all the sources about the flag of Western Sahara are unanimous about what it is. M.Bitton (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
It's not OR, it's a logical argument based on past consensus. Look at how the Western Sahara article is full of sources that distinguish the region and the state.
The entry on this list is about the region as well as the claimed territory of the smaller state. All treatment on WP of Western Sahara has to take care around this issue. That's why the Western Sahara article lists two flags, that's why so many editors in the past have noted how ambiguous the situation is. There's even a Template:Western_Sahara-note which was thought necessary to avoid having to rewrite the need for neutrality here. Wizmut (talk) 18:17, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
This is about the flag of Western Sahara, so the only valid argument should be about it and nothing else. At the risk of repeating myself, neutrality (i,.e, NPOV) only comes into play when the reliable sources about something disagree, this is clearly not the case. Please see Flag of Western Sahara and if you're still not satisfied, Google it and see what comes up. M.Bitton (talk) 18:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I get this[4] - not a reliable source. And I get "Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic" in big words. And I get Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. And I get this [5] which starts "The flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic,..." Google seems to be correcting me for searching for something that doesn't exist.
The entry on the list is for the region/claimed land, not the flag, so it's not "about the flag and nothing else". Wizmut (talk) 18:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I find that hard to believe given that I get nothing else but the Flag of Western Sahara (I'm fairly certain that everyone else will see what I'm seeing). Of course it's about the flag (the very thing that you're removing). M.Bitton (talk) 18:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
You will have to believe me. Perhaps we have different search histories. And perhaps the conversation has taken on too many "you"s and "I"s - a lot of our posts have been about the other person rather than the topic.
If we can't agree on what the discussion is about then we're probably not going to make any progress. I hope you have a good holiday, and look forward to contributions from somebody who agrees with either one of us. Wizmut (talk) 18:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you. That was just a figure of speech btw. Happy holidays and a happy new year to you. Best, M.Bitton (talk) 19:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Western Sahara is a disputed territory split between two opposing governments that do not agree on what flag should fly there. Since the population figure here presumably is the total of both Moroccan and SADR citizens, to only show one flag is not neutral. The Flag of Western Sahara article seems to favor the SADR flag, even though it does state that "the Moroccan flag is used on the occupied parts of Western Sahara." --Lasunncty (talk) 00:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

@Adithya Shankaran please provide an edit summary and an official source for your recent changes. If no source is provided, edits can be reverted for no other reason. Please use the talk page to discuss changes that have been challenged rather than reverting again. See the revert and discuss cycle. Wizmut (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

@Adithya Shankaran Wizmut (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Should we use the UN source for India until they publish their census results?

Almost a year ago this article was protected with the note "semi-ing to calm this down until the issue is settled". Well, the issue has not been settled.

The issue is that most demographers think India has outgrown China. But India doesn't want to say so, instead repeatedly delaying its census, possibly for internal political reasons.[6]

In total, India has delayed its 2021 census nine times.[7] They have also not published birth and death data since 2020.[8]

Right now entries on this table are usually not more than 10 years old. And between India's lack of base data and marginal data, their estimates are probably no better than one that is 10 years old. Their latest projections were published in 2020, and even their guess for March 2024 doesn't put them ahead of China's Jan 2024 estimate. Wizmut (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Pinging frequent editors of this article: @MIHAIL @Sokndal @TU-nor Wizmut (talk) 02:56, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I am fully aware of the problem, but I am reluctant to make any exceptions to the main rule. It is difficult enough to fence off editors that have found a "better" number for this or that country as it is. If they can argue that "you did that for India", it is difficult to uphold the rule for other countries that may have even older estimates.

An afterthought: Perhaps it would be an idea to make the note "According to UN estimates, India surpassed China by the end of Apr 2023" more visible, perhaps by attaching it to the country names of China and India.
--T*U (talk) 09:05, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
I made this mock-up, based on the big area list:

	Country / Dependency	Population	% of world	Date	Source (official or from the United Nations)
–	World	8,102,809,000	100%	25 Apr 2024	UN projection
1/2	China	1,409,670,000	17.4%	31 Dec 2023	Official estimate
	India	1,392,329,000	17.2%	1 Mar 2023	Official projection