administrative Action Review

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Indefinite TPA revocation for “proxying while blocked”

Latest comment: 1 day ago48 comments22 people in discussion

Action: Indefinite talk page access revocation [1]

User: Doug Weller (talk · contribs · logs) (prior discussion)

I’m opening this XRV on behalf of a senior editor who has lost their editing privileges. Those familiar with the situation will know that I’m not a fan of the AE process that led to the editor’s siteban by boomerang, nor of the subsequent appeal rejection. However, this XRV is not about relitigating the AE case but about the recent decision by Doug Weller (reaffirmed by Yamla in UTRS #86485) to indefinitely revoke the editor’s talk page access.

The reason for the TPA revoke (effectively a permaban) was given as: it makes little sense for an indefinitely blocked editor to be discussing anything with other editors... [2] Doug has also shared his views on this matter at Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Proxying_while_blocked. However, the consensus in that discussion leaned toward a less codified, more relaxed stance, as exemplified by Bishonen’s comment.

EXHIBIT A: Sennalen's Talk since her December 2023 siteban

REMEDY REQ.: Restoration of TPA privileges

Respectfully submitted, XMcan (talk) 00:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Endorse The above discussion is nowhere near sufficient to codify policy against Doug Weller's stance, which is one I happen to agree with. This is a frivolous filing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Do not Endorse I support the more liberal reading of WP:PROXYING. It is fine to make suggestions for improvement on your talk page that are objectively productive. The only two alleged wp:proxying violations I could find on sennalen's talk page since the AE block are suggestions for improvement that seem to me completely and utterly unobjectionable, one for correcting a typo and another for a link-rotted source, including a suggestion for an archived link. Other than that, the talk page was used to discuss the ban, and to perform actions that are part of a normal appeals process. It would've been a different story if the talk page was being used for obvious trolling or continued attempts at POV pushing, but I'm not seeing that. I think Doug jumped the gun on this one. EDIT to add that the way I read WP:PROXYING, the onus is on the editor performing the edit request from a blocked user to make sure the edit they are performing isn't a problematic one, since the user making the request isn't trusted by the community. This does not mean that the request cannot be made, it means doing your due diligence and putting your own head on the line when carrying one out. Nothing more, nothing less. --Licks-rocks (talk) 10:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Endorse. The only things a blocked editor is permitted to use their talk page for is appealing or seeking clarification regarding their block. Revoking TPA from editors making extensive use of their talk page for other matters is to be encouraged. Thryduulf (talk) 10:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Endorse per Thryduulf. Also, anyone seeing an issue with an appeal being made on behalf of an editor who was indeffed partly for their persistent disruption on Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory ... by another editor who is currently blocked indefinitely from the same article? Black Kite (talk) 10:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment XMcan, you should probably have notified me of this discussion. I object to "TPA revoke (effectively a permaban)". The blocked user clearly knew about UTRS and made use of UTRS. This is not only not a ban but it's not permanent, either, only indefinite. Sennalen knows how to contest it. Regardless, I do stand by my claim that an indefinitely blocked user should no longer be contributing to the encyclopedia. --Yamla (talk) 11:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Endorse I am NOT one of the admins who think that policy says you must ONLY talk about unblocking, btw, but there are limits. I'm fairly liberal when it comes to using the talk page to talk about constructive edits while blocked, and don't see a problem with "cleaning up" and similar actions by blocked editors. After all, the block isn't personal, so I'm happy to allow a blocked editor to have some normal discussions with other editors as long as the tone is constructive and is about a path forward, with the goal of maybe working them back into the fold eventually. Sometimes it means discussing articles they were working on, but that is usually very short comments, and a little of that is ok in my opinion. But monologuing about other editors, wikilawyering the admin who blocked you or relitigating is clearly too much. In short, if the editor is showing some clue (even if they disagree with the outcome), it is easy to be lenient about what they post, but this wasn't the case here. AE is going to be the only venue to appeal the block (or Arb), no single admin (except the blocking admin) can unilaterally unblock (usually), so they couldn't use a standard talk page unblock request anyway. After a while, if they want to appeal again after getting some clue, it is pretty common to restore TPA exclusively for appealing (copy/paste) at AE, and they can use UTRS to request at the appropriate time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Per WP:TPA: editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page, or when the user has engaged in serious threats, accusations, or attempts at outing that must be prevented from re-occurring. Did they do any of that? ——Serial Number 54129 13:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment. I'm a little surprised to see my own comment mentioned specifically by XMcan, as it's not really related to consensus in the discussion. The non-existent rule that a blocked user can only use their talkpage to request unblock was mentioned in passing, so I protested, saying it's not a rule and admins need to stop bollocking people over "violating" it. It's something I feel strongly about, but very much a side-issue in the discussion, which was about whether or not a blocked user is allowed to use their talkpage to ask others to make particular edits. I made it explicit that I wasn't talking about that ("I don't have an opinion about the proxying, but", my italics). XMcan, if you believe consensus in that discussion leaned toward a more relaxed stance regarding the proxying, you'd better find an example of that, as opposed to an example of me getting on my hobbyhorse. BTW, I'm even more surprised to see Thryduulf above unhesitatingly endorsing the "user talk is only for requesting unblock" myth, and then being "very surprised" when put right. I won't repeat everything I said before, but it was here, Thryduulf. There are reasons it's not policy or even a guideline. Still, that's not what this review is about. Bishonen | tålk 13:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC).
Endorse. Allowing blocked editors to edit their talk page is fundamentally a procedural measure to allow unblock requests; it's not a back door to continuing to work on the encyclopedia. Over time, a degree of tolerance has allowed seeking and gaining advice on appealing the block in conversations which are sometimes useful and sometimes not, and so too we've come to tolerate some initial venting and the occasional initial request that someone pay attention to something unrelated to the block which the editor had been starting to work on. Too many failed appeals, too much back-and-forth about the block, or venting for too long all lead to removal of talk-page access and so does persistent evasion of being blocked from working on the encyclopedia. We don't have a simple policy-based phrasing for this or a set of absolute red lines, so administrators will explain it in different ways when removing TPA but that may be for the best; a precise formulation would probably have to be stricter than current practice. NebY (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment (OP). Thank you for the references to other cases. It was an interesting read, especially the case of Martinevans123 and his 400+ posts while blocked. His Talk is a very long read; for convenience, here’s the section where his TPA block is discussed. I have no issue with Martin’s case; I'm just pointing out that there was a lot more "proxing" and a lot more "chit-chatting" there than in this case. So, I don’t understand why Sennealen should be receiving different treatment. I guess I could speculate that she appears not to have as much social capital as Martin, or perhaps her cardinal sin was "venting" in her last post without proclaiming “Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa” loudly enough.

Let me rephrase that in more neutral terms. Should Sennalen lose TPA because:

(A) There is an unwritten rule that the only things a blocked editor is permitted to use their talk page for are appealing or seeking clarification regarding their block.

(B) There is a specific offending post or posts in Sennalen's talk that warrant her losing TPA.

If the answer is A, then the question is why others are receiving different treatment. If B, I’d like someone to point out what that offending post is, as I have not seen any that fit the bill. Finally, if there is nothing to list under B and the community doesn’t support general rule A, then fairness and logic dictate that Sennalen's ban should be overturned. XMcan (talk) 14:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to sound like an aging queer postmodernist, but these binary options just don't work for me. Reality doesn't have to be either a universal rule or a smoking gun. For one thing, in spite of the seemingly dismissive reference to social capital, a highly relevant consideration may be, based on their track record, what is the likelihood that this editor would ever make clearly and uncontroversially positive contributions to enwiki? I think the most relevant metaphor here to decide Talk page access might be a sliding scale, that takes context and anticipated future impacts into account.

From my own time at ANI (regarding a TBAN not a block, but still I think relevant), I know that a long history of positive contributions to a space - one that is itself subject to controversy - will not outweigh a much shorter list of contributions seen as disruptive. And so OWNTALK participation that takes the form of commentary from the sidelines concerning those controversies, or explanations of an editor's own rectitude, will quite correctly be weighed differently by admin than OWNTAK comments that could potentially contribute to a return to editing.

Concerning controversies, my perception now is that contributions to a contentious space, even "good edits" and proposals that may receive consensus or broad support, are "discounted" when editors trying to judge the extent of disruption can interpret these contributions as taking one side in a controversy. Editors in contentious topic areas need to go beyond following the normal standards of editorial conduct so they are actually seen as clearly positive contributors. Editors like Sennalen, who appear not to be interested in contributing outside of highly polarized topics, will not win their way back into the community if their rhetorical stance is to insist that they were right all along - even if they were right all along. Newimpartial (talk) 15:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

A decision to let a senior editor back to editing articles is distinct from the decision to allow or not allow that editor to post on their own talk page. One does not imply the other, nor is the other being decided here. Case in point, Martinevans123 waited over a year to have his editing privileges restored after being given TPA back. As I stated from the outset, we are not relitigating Sennalen’s AE case here. XMcan (talk) 18:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

How are you defining senior editor? Including 3 deleted edits, Sennalen made 2,082 edits. 446 in main space. 795 to article talk pages. Hardly a senior editor. Doug Weller talk 19:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Those comments caught my eye too. Calling them a senior editor comes across as posturing or pretty drastic glittering generality, especially in the backdrop of an editor who was banned due to WP:NOTHERE and just very clearly not getting it afterwards on their talk page or during appeals. KoA (talk) 19:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Bradv or another Check User can answer this better than I can. What I recall from the AE case is that the editor had to change her username due to legitimate privacy concerns. XMcan (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Their account was created December 15 2021. What does that have to do with the AE case? Doug Weller talk 20:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

And your account was created in 2009, your first edit was in 2011 and you’ve made 327 edits, 95 to articles, 96 to article talk pages.. Doug Weller talk 20:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Sennalen asserted that they'd edited under a different account from 2014 through 2019, which raised further questions; Bradv noted Sennalen has given the name of their previous account to me by email, and I can confirm that it is not subject to any blocks, bans, or sanctions. They have also provided the reason they want to keep the previous account secret, and it is a legitimate privacy issue not related to their editing.[3] Bradv didn't go into numbers of edits. Whether any of that means they should be accorded the privileges of a senior editor is another matter - likewise, whether such privileges do or should exist. NebY (talk) 20:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Endorse per Dennis Brown. They pretty much summed up my views that in this case, the idea of a hard rule about talk pages only being for appealing, etc. after a site ban is simply a red herring. It's the conduct/attitude that matters. Sennalen instead was clearly still displaying a WP:NOTHERE attitude and in general having WP:NOTTHEM issues, especially when you look at the appeals. In a case like this where an editor just will not let go, even after a ban, revoking access more or less forces them to drop the battleground stick, and that was clearly needed here. Sennalen already had opportunity to appeal and seemed to instead convince people that issues would continue instead, so there also doesn't seem to be an immediate need for talk page access anymore. Regardless of what someone thinks about talk page use after a ban, this seems like a pretty obvious case where most admins within normal discretion would notice a problem with the talk page use and at least consider the need for action. Not all would, but nothing outlandish or even unexpected was done in this action either. KoA (talk) 19:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment The request for review ends "REMEDY REQ.: Restoration of TPA privileges". XMcan, these reviews have only two outcomes, endorsed and not endorsed. They don't determine remedies or otherwise authorise further actions. NebY (talk) 20:46, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment There's no presentation made in the OP; it just assumes that somebody is going to spend hours learning about it. IMO any result should not preclude the blocked person from actually making their case here in the future. At first glance, blocking looks OK, and indef looks like overkill. Some of the above seems like not dealing with the indef aspect. Indef is often a editor killer. Maybe Doug just change it to a month or two? North8000 (talk) 20:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Endorse. Pretty clear proxying imo. Queen of ♡ | speak 07:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Endorse per Dennis Brown. If their talk page activities were mostly benign then who really cares, but when they are monologuing about other editors, wikilawyering the admin who blocked them, relitigating or requesting others to proxy on their behalf then was this any surprise? This is exactly what Novem Linguae encouraged other administrators to do if it continued, in his edit at Special:Diff/1209709536, when Sennalen was proxying. TarnishedPath^talk 10:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Endorse per others. Talk page access for blocked users is for unblock discussion, not for other matters and definitely not for discussing articles. Agree with Pppery about of this filling. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Endorse. We only block users when there is a risk of disruption. If a user continues to be disruptive while blocked then removing talk page access is a good move. If they are genuinely interested in getting unblocked they will have submitted a clear and convincing unblock request after following WP:SO, rather than trying to get others to make edits on their behalf. Awesome Aasim 19:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I don't necessarily have a problem with this revocation, and indeed I probably support it (blocked means blocked and all that). But there's never been agreement on where to draw the line (going back years), and this has created a situation where, to oversimplify slightly, unpopular users lose their talk page access while popular ones don't (cf. Martinevans123, discussed here). That's the worst of all possible worlds, I think. The community really needs to reach a consensus one way or another on whether "talk page access is only for appealing/questioning the block" is the rule we want to use. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

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Indefinite TPA revocation for “proxying while blocked”

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